NVCC Driving Education (HPDE) at Jefferson Meeting Info

[Akcelr8]

A meeting was held on 15 Dec to start planning for a high performance driving education (HPDE) event at Jefferson Circuit on June 20, 2005. Mike Sarver lead the discussions. The following are from my notes and will be supplemented by James Anderson's (I hope) and other's attached to this thread.

The following areas were covered in the discussion:
Classroom Synopsis - Ralph Watts and Mike Woods volunteered to put together a synopsis of the training concentrating on the areas of instruction. This will be provided to the NCCC Eastern Region Competition Chairperson for accreditation. Ralph will contact Miriam Shlotke (Schlotman? sp?) from NASA to see if she would provide classroom instruction. We will try to negotiate track time as compensation for her service. A preliminary list of training areas are: a) Car control and vehicle dynamics b) track analysis and c) safety to include passing zones, flags and equipment.

HPDE Groups:
It was recommended that we limit the number of cars per session at 15.

Group 1A: No prior high speed track experience
Group 1B: Some prior high speed track experience but not signed off by a sanctioning body at a BSR Advanced level (group III) or equivalant.
Group 2: Signed off by a sanctioning body but not an instructor
Group 3: Instructors (credentials needed from a sanctioning body)

Instructors:
- Provided by NVCC, BSR (SCCA), NASA and NCCC. We need to make contact and seek support.
- Free track time and $5 towards lunch.
- Need 15 instructors or one per Group 1 student

Track Support:
Eight corner workers to be provided by BSR
Emergency Services provided by BSR

Schedule: 10 minutes between each 20 minute track session.
On Track Classroom
0900 Instructors
0930 Group 1A Group 1B
1000 Group 2
1030 Group 1B Group 1A
1100 Instructors
1130 Group 1A Group 1B
1200 Group 2
1230 Group 1B Group 1A
1300 Lunch
1400 Instructors
1430 Group 1A Group 1B
1500 Group 2
1530 Group 1B Group 1A
1600 Instructors
1630 Group 1A Group 1B
1700 Group 2
1730 Group 1B Group 1A

Schedule needs to be looked at to finish earlier.

Cost/Registration:
Registration will be first opened to NVCC for a period of time and then all others (including non-Corvette)
Cost will be determined with a goal to break-even.

The next meeting will be scheduled shortly and posted in this thread. All attendees to the first meeting are asked to attend the next. All others interested in helping are also encouraged to attend.

----Notes from 15 Dec 04, 7:00pm NVCC HPDE Meeting
by Ralph Watts

[Black396]

After playing with the schedule, I cannot figure anyway to get 4 sessions for 4 groups with 10 minutes between each session in 9 hours.

What I was able to come up with is:
Time .............. On Track
9:00-9:20 ...... Instructors
9:30-9:50 ...... GP 1a
10:00-10:20 .. GP 2
10:30-10:50 .. GP 1b
11:00-11:25 .. Instructors
11:35-12:00 .. GP 1a
12:00-1:00..... Lunch
1:00-1:25 ...... GP 2
1:35-2:00 ...... GP 1b
2:10-2:35 ...... Instructors
2:45-3:10 ...... GP 1a
3:20-4:05 ...... GP 2
4:15-4:40 ...... GP 1b

Each group gets one 20 minute session and two 25 minute sessions on track.

We could also run with three 25 minute sessions but that doesn't leave any room if something happens.

[Akcelr8]

At first glance I see a problem with either schedule Mike. Group 1A either goes on-track without any classroom instruction for the first session or they get a quick 15 minute classroom session (0900-0915). I really don't like either choice. How about starting with 1B since they have some previous experience. We could give them the 15-minute first class just so they're familiar with the flags, passing rules, etc. This way 1A gets a full session before they hit the track.

[Woods977]

Ralph what your new email address? I have some great info from PCA

[Black396]

Good point. I like it.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of three 25 minutes sessions. If something does happen we can always pull the time back from the group where it occurred (like we talked about) or shorten all the sessions later in the day.

25 minute sessions should just about be right. Not so long as to wear people out but still long enough to get up to speed and get into the rhtym.

[Akcelr8]

OK, I got another idea. If we held the first 1a Classroom from 0830 to 0915 then 1a would get 3 classroom sessions and 1b would get 2. It would go like this:
1a classroom: 0830-0915; 1030-1115; 1330-1430
1b classroom: 0930-1015; 1430-1530.

Drivers' meeting would be at 0745 and Instructors' Meeting at 0800.

What do you think?

[Akcelr8]

My email at work is wattsr@hoffman.army.mil and at home is akcelr8@cox.net

[Woods977]

My email at work is wattsr@hoffman.army.mil and at home is akcelr8@cox.net

sent to both

[badaz06]

My question is this:

How much passing are you going to allow for newbies? The reason I ask is that with 15 cars on a 1.3 mile track, you have about 400 feet max between cars. Cars can easily exceed 60 mph on the track, but let's use that as a base. That leaves less than 5 seconds between cars, assuming all cars are equal. Of course we know that all cars and all drivers are not equal.

I know the passing rules are going to be in place, but can we prevent bunching up, especially in newer drivers? Am I just being naive? My concern, quite honestly, is the level of skill that you drivers have over what new drivers dont have. Drifting behind each other going into a turn is no big deal to many of you, mostly because you have enough experience not only in racing, but with each other, to have that level of trust that someone isn't going to lock up the brakes, or that you each have enough innate knowledge that if something isnt right, you'll immediately hop out of the line to let others go by. New drivers who are trying to learn everything being thrown at them, aren't going to have that reflex yet.

What happened at Spook would of been a catastrophe if the drivers involved weren't as good as they were, and even then that was a 20 second gap! I know you guys are thinking safety as well, but please think of it from our standpoint, as beginners, who aren't the solid veterans you are.

Just trying to understand things.

Jeff

[Black396]

OK, I got another idea. If we held the first 1a Classroom from 0830 to 0915 then 1a would get 3 classroom sessions and 1b would get 2. It would go like this:
1a classroom: 0830-0915; 1030-1115; 1330-1430
1b classroom: 0930-1015; 1430-1530.

Drivers' meeting would be at 0745 and Instructors' Meeting at 0800.

What do you think?

I don't think we can have any classrooms start before 9:00. I don't have the times right now... but I was looking at Tech & Registration from 7:00 - 8:20 or so. Drivers meeting from 8:30 - 8:45. I was also thinking 3 classroom sessions for both 1A & 1B with the 2nd & 3rd sessions for group 1B primarily feedback and driver interaction.

[Akcelr8]

Hey Jeff, A couple of years age I attended a NASA HPDE on Jefferson. We had at least 15 cars in the novice class (my class at the time) with passing on the main straight and I believe on the back straight as well. I don't remember bunching being an issue since, in that class, many folks will automatically back off from the car ahead before they hit the twisties (it's a comfort thing). Filling someone's rearview mirror usually doesn't start happening until folks start gaining experience and they gain confidence in themselves and others on the track. If a train does occur you can always come into the pit lane and request spacing from the track marshal.

[Black396]

How much passing are you going to allow for newbies?

None.

<j/k> passing will probably be restricted to the front and back straights (maybe just the long back straight for group 1A newbies)

The reason I ask is that with 15 cars on a 1.3 mile track, you have about 400 feet max between cars. Cars can easily exceed 60 mph on the track, but let's use that as a base. That leaves less than 5 seconds between cars, assuming all cars are equal. Of course we know that all cars and all drivers are not equal.

You're kidding right?

We were assuming less then 1 car length between cars. [;)]


There will be some bunching up but I can't think of any reason why there should ever be 400' between cars even in the 1A session. That's longer than a football field. If they need that much distance they probably don't belong on the track in the first place. I would say that 3-4 car lengths for most 1st time drivers is about average at the events I've been to.

[Akcelr8]

I don't think we can have any classrooms start before 9:00. I don't have the times right now... but I was looking at Tech & Registration from 7:00 - 8:20 or so. Drivers meeting from 8:30 - 8:45. I was also thinking 3 classroom sessions for both 1A & 1B with the 2nd & 3rd sessions for group 1B primarily feedback and driver interaction.
Mike, if we have to start after 0900, the best we can do is two sessions for each group...one each in the AM and one each in the PM.

[Black396]

How's that? I was thinking...

Time .............. On Track ...... In Class
7:00-8:20 ...... Tech & Registration
8:35-8:50 ...... Drivers Meeting
9:00-9:25 ...... Instructors .. 1b ... 09:00-09:25
9:35-10:00 .... GP 1b .......... 1a ... 09:35-10:00
10:10-10:35 .. GP 2
10:45-11:10 .. GP 1a .......... 1b ... 10:45-11:10
11:20-11:50 .. Instructors .. 1a ... 11:20-11:50
12:00-12:25 .. GP 1b
12:25-1:25..... Lunch
1:25-1:50 ...... GP 2 ............ 1b ... 1:25-1:50
2:00-2:25 ...... GP 1a
2:35-3:00 ...... Instructors .. 1a ... 2:35-3:00
3:10-3:35 ...... GP 1b
3:45-4:10 ...... GP 2
4:20-4:45 ...... GP 1a
4:55-5:10 ...... Drivers Meeting

[Black396]

Sorry Jeff, I couldn't resist the humour in the previous post.

In all seriousness...

The front straight on the main track is ~3000' ( back straight on Jefferson isn't much shorter). In my first FATT with BSR (1st event) we must have had about 10-12 cars strung out on the front straight for the 1st couple of laps. Bunching up and spreading out as we went around the track. Within 3 - 4 laps it was pretty well sorted out based on driver comfort.

Now one driver can cause a train if he doesn't give passing signals. But that is part of the instructor's responsiblities.

I'm not sure what you are asking? Are you indirectly saying that you feel 15 cars on the track at one time is too many?

[Ebein]

Sorry Jeff, I couldn't resist the humour in the previous post.

In all seriousness...

The front straight on the main track is ~3000' ( back straight on Jefferson isn't much shorter). In my first FATT with BSR (1st event) we must have had about 10-12 cars strung out on the front straight for the 1st couple of laps. Bunching up and spreading out as we went around the track. Within 3 - 4 laps it was pretty well sorted out based on driver comfort.

Now one driver can cause a train if he doesn't give passing signals. But that is part of the instructor's responsiblities.

I'm not sure what you are asking? Are you indirectly saying that you feel 15 cars on the track at one time is too many?

Beaverun is only 1.53 miles and we had 15+ cars on track in
group 1 with wildly varying cars ( cavaliers to vipers ) there
would only be brief moments of being bunched up as the
faster cars caught up to the slower ones.

I passed the same Cavalier 6+ times in one 30 minute session,
the driver was very attentive to approaching traffic and would
give liberal point by's to allow traffic to continue moving. As
long as the instructor and driver give proper point by's 15 on
track at once shouldnt be much of an issue IMO anyway.

[wazzzup]

I don't think we can have any classrooms start before 9:00. I don't have the times right now... but I was looking at Tech & Registration from 7:00 - 8:20 or so. Drivers meeting from 8:30 - 8:45. I was also thinking 3 classroom sessions for both 1A & 1B with the 2nd & 3rd sessions for group 1B primarily feedback and driver interaction.
Mike, if we have to start after 0900, the best we can do is two sessions for each group...one each in the AM and one each in the PM.

Hey guys, I know that I'm late on this conversation but I tend to agree with Ralph on this. I think that a classroom instruction in the AM, and 1 in the PM would be perfect.If you start cramming too much classroom, on track, and instructor's know how into some of these people all that is going to happen is they are going to get confused. If you use the classroom in the AM for the important need to know items, then use the PM classroom for finer points, fine tuning the line, and Q&A it would be perfect.

[wazzzup]

I also like the idea of 3 longer sessions Mike. This is what I was talking about last night. I just kept adding up the times in my head and they didn't add up. But, you da man! [:D]

[badaz06]

Sorry Jeff, I couldn't resist the humour in the previous post.

In all seriousness...

I'm not sure what you are asking? Are you indirectly saying that you feel 15 cars on the track at one time is too many?

I'm not saying anything....I'm asking questions....trying to get things right in my head. I think everyone is onboard and excited by what you guys are doing, but please keep in mind that this is the first time the club has done something like this, and there are bound to be a ton of questions about safety, how to's, what if's, etc., until doing something like this is just like Spook.

[Akcelr8]

How's that?

I'm not sure we can cover very much in sessions under 1/2 hour. Maybe my classroom instruction was too involved and needs to get more basic. I was trying to cover the following in the class: Vehicle dynamics and car contol (including seat and steering wheel positioning, traction circle and weight transfer, vehicle input management), Safety Topics including flags, passing, and equipment , and finally Track Analysis including the ideal line, turns, and track surface. That's alot of stuff to cramm into three 1/2 sessions. I'll try to figure something out tomorrow with the classroom based on each group having 3, 25-minute track sessions.

[Akcelr8]

OK, based on your track schedule, how's this for the classroom:

Time .............. On Track ...... In Class
7:00-8:20 ...... Tech & Registration
8:35-8:50 ...... Drivers Meeting
9:00-9:25 ...... Instructors .. 1b ... 09:00-09:25&.25 min
9:35-10:00 .... GP 1b .......... 1a ... 09:30-10:20&50 min
10:10-10:35 .. GP 2
10:45-11:10 .. GP 1a .......... 1b ... 10:30-11:20&50 min
11:20-11:50 .. Instructors .. .1a ... 11:30-12:00&30 min
12:00-12:25 .. GP 1b
12:25-1:25..... Lunch
1:25-1:50 ...... GP 2 ............ 1b ... 1:25-2:00&&35 min
2:00-2:25 ...... GP 1a
2:35-3:00 ...... Instructors .. 1a ... 2:35-3:10&&.35 min
3:10-3:35 ...... GP 1b
3:45-4:10 ...... GP 2
4:20-4:45 ...... GP 1a
4:55-5:10 ...... Drivers Meeting

[Ebein]

What qualifications are we using to determine who runs in which
group?

Group 1a, New people to Road Course/High Speed, Instructor rides with. ( Similar to Nasa Group 1 )

Group 1b, Experienced people to Road Course/High Speed,
Instructor rides with. ( Similar to Nasa Group 2 )

Group 2, Signed off for NASA Group 2 Solo/Group 3/Group 4 but not acting as an instructor at our event. No Instructor ridealong?

Group 3, NASA group 4, BSR instructor etc.

That look right?

[Black396]

What were you doing, sneaking a look at the notes from the meeting? [:D]


Group definition isn't firm but that is pretty close to what we came up with.

[C5inWV]

You may be able to shorten lunch, or plan to use it as catch-up time. It should be a time when some groups could use the classroom. I know the corner workers need a break, but 12:25 to 1:25 doesn't need to be "dead space."

[Black396]

You may be able to shorten lunch, or plan to use it as catch-up time. It should be a time when some groups could use the classroom. I know the corner workers need a break, but 12:25 to 1:25 doesn't need to be "dead space."

I don't think we can shorten lunch. EMT and Corner workers need a break and using Ralph's revised classroom schedule, we have the classroom instructor going pretty solid also.

I have been working under the assumption that there would only be one classroom instructor for the entire day. I have had events where I had different classroom instructors during the day but I didn't care for them. There was quite a bit of overlap where the two instructors both covered the same subject.

We could think about using two classroom instructors though... Ralph what do you think?

[Akcelr8]

Ralph what do you think?
I'd rather go with one instructor for the consistancy. Depending on whose providing the instruction (something Woodsie and I are working with NASA and PCA about) we may defer to their preference based on their experience.

[Black396]

Ralph what do you think?
I'd rather go with one instructor for the consistancy. Depending on whose providing the instruction (something Woodsie and I are working with NASA and PCA about) we may defer to their preference based on their experience.

I'm good with whatever you and Mike come up with.

It might be too much information but I would like to see what the Pennsylvannia guys do for classroom training and track schedule.

Andrej has Ruritan (bingo) this evening. He's going to have a lot of reading to catch up with on this thread. [:D]

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I keep getting this feeling that there is a major area that we (I) have forgotten or overlooked.

[wazzzup]

Mike, Mike, Ralph, Just a thought? Is there any reason for the first round we couldn't have the instructors, and group 2 go out on the track first, and combine the 1a and 1b in the classroom for the first session for longer classroom time in the am. I would think that you will be teaching the same class wouldn't you? Then that would give time in between the group 2 on track time if you wanted to do something with them like a Q&A session with the classroom instrucor or something. If I'm rambling on tell me to shut up, and I will back out. I'm a student trying to learn so I am going to ask a lot of dumb questions. [:D]

[wazzzup]

That would also free up the instuctors after they come off the track the first time so that they can talk and get on the same page before us rookies come out. Your not going to make us put yellow stripes on our bumpers are you?

[Black396]

I'm not sure I follow you George...

Do you mean just move Group 2 up a slot?

Time .............. On Track ...... In Class
7:00-8:20 ...... Tech & Registration
8:35-8:50 ...... Drivers Meeting
9:00-9:25 ...... Instructors .. 1b ... 09:00-10:00 .. 60 min
9:35-10:00 .... GP 2 ............ 1a ... 09:00-10:00 .. 60 min
10:10-10:35 .. GP 1b

[wazzzup]

Just for the 1st session. Combine 1a and 1b in the classroom, let the instructors go out on the track come off and group together for a short meeting of the minds while the group 2 cars are out on the track. By the time group 2 comes off the track the instructors will be ready for the 1a drivers while the 1b drivers watch. The group 2 drivers would be free for a small Q&A session with the classroom instructor while 1a and 1b are out on the track. That way for the first session in the morning the 1a and 1b drivers can have a full hour of classroom instruction together and that would free up some time for everyone.

[Black396]

Just for the 1st session. Combine 1a and 1b in the classroom, let the instructors go out on the track come off and group together for a short meeting of the minds while the group 2 cars are out on the track. By the time group 2 comes off the track the instructors will be ready for the 1a drivers while the 1b drivers watch. The group 2 drivers would be free for a small Q&A session with the classroom instructor while 1a and 1b are out on the track. That way for the first session in the morning the 1a and 1b drivers can have a full hour of classroom instruction together and that would free up some time for everyone.


I'll put it into the schedule and see how it works.

It also depends on what Ralph and Mike come up with for training. At the events I have been to classroom content has been different between Group I and Group II students.

[wazzzup]

True, but your not putting I & II together. Your putting 1A & 1B together. I would think that their classes would be the same plus that would give you the consistancy that you are looking for.

[Black396]

True, but your not putting I & II together. Your putting 1A & 1B together. I would think that their classes would be the same plus that would give you the consistancy that you are looking for.

Remember the criteria for 1A is Novice (no experience) and 1B is Intermediate (some experience).

[wazzzup]

Yes, but you are still going to go over the same rules, flags, safety, line, passing zones, hand signals, etc. Thats why I said to do it in the morning session. That's the bulk of the info that both groups must know to go out on the track anyway. Then in the 2 later sessions if they are that different to split them up to your original schedule. If you can do that I think it's going to do good for everyone. Plus it's going to give you that 30-50 minutes that you are looking for. [;)]

[wazzzup]

What's going on guys, havn't heard anything in a couple of days? Talked to Woodsie last night, and he mentioned something about instructors from the Porcshe club. Said he was still working on something.

[Black396]

Woodsie and Ralph have their heads together. They are working on the training, the possibility of an 'real' instructor for the classroom and making contacts with PCA, etc. for instructors.

I have a so-so draft of a Tech Sheet we can put out and I'm working on a Registration Sheet. We should probably get together again shortly after the 1st of the year.

I've got two versions of the track schedule, one with separate training for Groups 1A and 1B and one with a combined classroom for the 1st CR session of the day.

I emailed James the funding information and he is putting together a budget for the council.

To me, budgets are about profits and this event isn't about making a profit. If anyone has ideas of turning this into a 'money maker'... well let's just say it will make me very unhappy.

[janderson]

To me, budgets are about profits and this event isn't about making a profit. If anyone has ideas of turning this into a 'money maker'... well let's just say it will make me very unhappy.

Budgets aren't always about a profit.
I agree this event should be budgeted as a zero profit event. That will keep the costs reasonable for participants and will provide a benefit to club members.

I should have a draft the first week of January so we can iron out any wrinkles and submit it to the council the first meeting in January.